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Subject: removing rudder

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tom tepas
Posts:8

11/02/2007 8:47 PM  
As I have my rudder sitting in the corner of my shop it was not too difficult to weigh it. It came in at around 115 lbs. I think I destroyed the scale I used by denting the platform , but it was an old one anyway.The Rudder was a bear to remove, mostly because I didnt know how and did it the hard way..If I had to it over I would simply have removed, disassembled the top bearing plate , caught the loose bearings with a tarp. and dropped it out.I tried beating the top stainless post through the bearing races , but all I did was deform the metal and make it worse ,or impossible toslide through the race. I have spent 2 or 3 hours with a straightedge and files, belt sanders to get it round again. Now I have it off, I still do not have the lower bearing off. I was thinking of just buying new balls and seeing if that would take out the slack, but I bet there areat least 150 of them and if it doesnt work I dont want to waste the money.I doubt you could get more than 10 lbs of water in this thing Tom Tepas
Robert Gordenker
Posts:25

11/03/2007 12:05 PM  
Tom,
Sounds like you will be a lot better off after all that work. Thanks for the weight. I will post mine as soon as I get back home and 'drop' mine on the scale. It will be interesting to see how much get drained/dried out over the winter. Good luck with the reassembly.
One trick with putting dry bearings together is to shoot shaving cream in the race to hold the balls. Then you can stick the balls in and they stay put. The cream will rinse out very easily with water and will not leave a residue.
Robert
Steve Carton
Posts:17

08/19/2009 3:34 PM  
Being a complete neophyte to this, am looking at this picture (the last one, of the tiller cap mounted on the post) and noticing the white ring/spacer between the cap and the sleeve. I'm guessing this is a Delrin ring. Is it the "locking ring" you mentioned? I'm asking because I'm looking at buying a J35 and the boat I'm looking at has no such space. Instead, the tiller cap makes contact with the top of the sleeve (or is that the upper bearing) and  is actually grinding it down with each turn of the rudder. That doesn't seem right. So I'm wondering if there is supposed to be a delrin spacer/washer between the two.

Please take a look at this picture to see what I mean...

http://www.stevecarton.com/main.php/v/J35/Ballyhoo/exterior/CIMG0974.JPG.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1


Robert Gordenker
Posts:25

08/21/2009 12:25 PM  
Steve,

Not quite sure about the delrin ring you discuss. I don't see it in the picture....

It looks like the tiller cap is rubbing on the outer race, which is secured to the deck. Looking at the picture, the flange of the inner race is probably not visible because it's under the tiller cap.

On TIME MACHINE, the inner-race of the upper bearing sticks up a bit above the surface of the the outer-race and there are 6 set-screws that are tapped in the race allowing the inner-race to be secured to the rudder-post. When I have the gap between the top of the rudder-blade and the hull set correctly and the post secured to the upper and lower bearings with the set-screws, I then slide the tiller-cap on and there is about a 3/8" gap between the bottom of the cap and the top of the inner race. There is a bolt that pins the tiller-cap to the rudder-post (don't want to depend only on the set-screws to hold up the post).

Some setups I have seen don't have the set-screws. In that case, the tiller cap rides on the upper bearing race. This is where you might need a spacer to set the gap between the top of the rudder-blade and the hull (depends on the length of the post). Having the spacer would also raise the bottom of the tiller-cap above the upper-bearing outer-race so that you are no longer making aluminum shavings. If you are going to remove the tiller-cap.... make sure to do it out of the water the first time, unless you are sure that the rudder-post is otherwise held into the bearings and boat. Make sure that you have a strong crew holding up on the rudder the first time, in case it wants to drop.

Hope this helps.

Robert
Steve Carton
Posts:17

08/26/2009 11:13 AM  
Well, the Delrin ring was in the pictures you posted, it's not in mine and that was part of my confusion - is there supposed to be one there? But I think I follow. Thanks for the description.
Steve Carton
Posts:17

12/30/2009 3:46 PM  
So, interestingly, the rudder came out of the boat without a hitch - actually just dropped out as soon as we removed the safety bolt. Turns out the lower bearing is completely shot. The upper looks fairly new (and has the roller bearings, not the balls of the older units). So the question is, how do I get the lower bearing out of the shaft? It seems to be in there solidly, though it pokes down a bit - like it was installed badly in some previous work. I can try and cut it out. But I;m wondering if I can knock it out with a tamping bar or something like that.

How much force can I put on this without doing damage to the shaft or the hull?
Jan Meier
Posts:11

12/31/2009 4:04 AM  
Hello Steve,

I just did the job. We removed the four securing screws holding the inner race in position, fixed the rudder with clamps, took a solid wooden bar and a big hammer.
Set the wooden bar on the edge of the inner race on one side and start driving it off with the hammer. In the beginning you should change the position of the wooden
bar after each impact by 180 deg. The inner race should come off after some strong hammer blows. In case you have to cut the inner race off, you can have a workshop
to machine a new one. I had to fabricate a new one as the old one got lost during surface treatment. The torlon balls can be purchased from Drake Plastics in Houston for a very competitive price.

Regards

Jan
Steve Carton
Posts:17

01/12/2010 2:00 PM  
Hi Jan,

Not sure I follow you regarding "fixing the rudder with clamps". Mine is off the boat, home, drying out next to the furnace. My lower bearing is stuck in the shaft. I am thinking I need to replace it altogether but am intrigued by your mention of replacing the torlon balls. The new lower bearing from Jeffa (PYI) is $1,500 :-(
Jan Meier
Posts:11

01/15/2010 7:44 AM  
Hello Steve,

you can apply high forces with the hammer and the bearing will come off the shaft. After the rudder was off the boat, I fixed it with clamps on two saw horses and started
with the hammer. It will take some tough blows before the bearing is going to move. Make sure that the bearing can freely move upwards. If not, a dremel is a useful tool to remove any debris from the topside of the bearing seat on the shaft. If you need very high forces, you should move the rudder including the saw horses to a massive wall until the upper part of the shaft has contact with the wall. By doing so, the forces of the hammer blows will not be applied to the structure in the rudder blade but limited to the shaft. My lower new inner race is still under production and is made of stainless steel. A good workshop can machine it within a few hours considered the material is available. If needed, I have the technical drawing of the inner race available. By the way, the balls of the upper bearing can be cheap polyamid instead of expensive torlon as the forces applied on the top bearing are very low. I changed the balls of the upper bearing in 2007 and it worked out perfect.

Regards

Jan

Regards

Jan
Steve Carton
Posts:17

01/15/2010 8:21 PM  
Hi Jan,

Both bearings are off my shaft (that sounds a little weird). The upper and lower bearings are still inside the tube (not sure what that is called) on the boat. The upper looks fairly new and has the roller bearings that the Jeffa style look like to me. The lower bearing is probably held in with 5200 or something like that. I'd like to pound it out from above, but am not sure how much force I can use and not do damage to the tube or the hull.

Here are two pics of what I mean:

http://www.chesbay.net/gallery/d/723-1/DSC_0010.JPG

http://www.chesbay.net/gallery/d/726-1/DSC_0006.JPG

Steve
Jan Meier
Posts:11

01/16/2010 11:27 AM  
Hi Steve,

I thought the lower bearing was still on the rudder shaft. Also the lower bearing looks like a jefa bearing as it has a delrin cover ring and the inner race looks like a stainless steel bushing. Just check if it is made out of aluminium or s/s. To push it out, you MUST make sure that it is not  held in place by some set screws, which can only be seen and removed from inside the boat. There should be two of them. I hope that the bearing was not completely installed with any kind of compound as this could mean that you have to destroy the bearing to get it out. I would recommend to use hydraulic force to push it slowly out of the rudder post. If you pound to much, you might destroy the joint between the rudder post and the hull. You can also built your own pulling tool by utilizing threaded rods, it needs in any case a creative construction. First time, I pushed the rudder (including lower bearing) out with the hydraulic jack. Main issue is to use just enough pressure and that very careful. If you let me have your e-mail, I send you the j-manual were you can see the basic construction of the rudder post.

Regards

Jan
Steve Carton
Posts:17

01/18/2010 2:59 PM  
Hi Jan,

Please feel free to email me at steve@chesbay.net

Steve
William Wildner
Posts:36

02/01/2010 12:34 PM  
This is certainly a Jefa bearing. In the event you are not able to pull the bearing out I would recommend that you disassemble the bearing. This would leave only the outer race in the boat. At that point you could gently heat the outer race which should allow it to break free. The bearing can be disassembled by removing the Teflon ring. The Teflon ring is retained by setscrews that thread from the I.D. of the inner race. Remove the setscrews and then unscrew the Teflon retainer. Be ready to catch the balls that certainly will try to fall and roll to the most difficult place to retrieve them from. Once the Teflon ring and the row of balls are removed you can then pull the rollers out. Be aware that the top of the bearing has the same arrangement as the bottom with a Teflon ring and balls. Catch the balls and displace the inner race up inside the tube while you continue your efforts with the outer race. Good Luck. Bill Wildner
William Wildner
Posts:36

02/01/2010 12:54 PM  
Cross section of bearing attached

Attachment: J35 PYI Bearing.pdf

Steve Carton
Posts:17

03/10/2010 2:04 PM  
If anyone is interested, here's how I ended up on the rudder project. I couldn't get the old lower bearing out without cutting it out and as it is a newer Jeffa bearing, I really didn't want to do that. It looks as though the last time the rudder was out of the boat, it was not put back in very well - or perhaps they couldn't get the lower bearing out either, but either way, the rudder was out of the boat, and the lower bearing was in, The set screws still protruding and keeping the rudder from being able to be pushed all the way up into the rudder post-shaft.

So we ground the epoxy down around the area where the set screws needed to go, just enough so as to push the rudder all the way up. This gained us about an inch higher position over what it was before. We then whetted the part of the post that goes back into the lower bearing and also applied some hard west filler over the area we ground down (where the set screws are). Then pushed the rudder back up into the shaft and braced it until the epoxy dries. Our hope is twofold - first, that this arrangement will last through the 2010 sailing season, and second, that when we haul the boat next fall, when we take the rudder out again, the lower bearing will come with it this time! Then we can set it up properly. If this arrangement fails, we won't have any choice but to have the bearing cut out and install a new one (ouch). But since I'm new to the boat this year and have all the attendant costs of new ownership (though Ballyhoo was maintained very well), I'd rather not add in this as well.

So I'll let the forum know how this plays out.

Thanks for all the tips and advice...

Steve
Jan Meier
Posts:11

12/26/2010 5:02 AM  
Hi folks,

just want to give a feedback to the forum concerning the lower bearing I renewed last March. I had the inner bearing race being
produced by a machine workshop in accordance with the original drawing from Harken. It is made of stainless steel and was assembled
with new torlon balls I got from Drake Plastics in Houston. After one season I am still impressed as the clearance has remained
unchanged. Helming the boat was a complete different story compared with the old bearing.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year.

Jan





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