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tom tepas
Posts:8
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| 10/13/2007 3:03 PM |
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| Does anyone know how to remove the rudder???I have removed the cap that secures the tiller, and loosened the allen set screws on the top collar. I am at a loss on how to correctly drop the rudder out of the boat without damaging anything ,or losing bearings from the top. I do not want to purchase a new lower bearing until I have successfully extracted the old components. Tom Tepas |
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Dan Wierman
Posts:6
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| 10/14/2007 8:34 PM |
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Tom
I have the same problem. I was changing the lower bearing, and I got to the point that you are at. I disassembled the bearing by removing the screws that hold the plate to the bearing outer race(the inner screws on the plate). I was then able to lower the bearing and all the balls fell out. But now, I cannot get the lower bearing off without removing the upper bearing. The inner race has corroded onto the stainless steel sleeve. It will not come off. I have a call into PYI to see if they have a upper bearing.
The upper bearing should slide off after the set screws are loosened and the lower bearing set screws are loosened.
I don't know how everyone else gets the upper bearing off. In the seawater environment with dissimiler metals, corrosion happens. This is probably why PYI sells the upper bearing with a new sleeve(it bolts onto the rudder stock).
Dan |
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Mike Lucas
Posts:5
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| 10/14/2007 10:40 PM |
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Hi Tom and Dan,
I did this last fall. It was a project and a half! I also had to take the screws out of the top bearing and dumped the bearing balls all over the ground to get the rudder out. It took 3 trips back to the boat to find all of the balls.
I removed the top bearing using a bearing puller from the local auto supply shop. You will need to measure from the top of the rudder shaft to the bottom of the bearing so you can get a bearing puller which is long enough. Take a look at the photo named "12-UpperBearing_Removal.JPG". Notice here that I had to put the top bearing back together to get it off. The other trick the photo shows is a solid aluminium bar which goes across the top of the bearing to give the threaded rod somewhere to push against (see "13-UpperBearing_Removal.JPG"). My bearing puller's threaded rod had a pointed tip on it, so I had to drill a hole in the aluminium bar to make sure it did not slip.
I replaced both my top and bottom bearings with the ones from PYI. Email Philip Quartararo (quartararo@pyiinc.com) at PYI, he was extremely helpful.
The lower bearing for the J35 is Part# 0641J35.
For the upper bearing you have two choices:
1. Part# 067T4HC125
2. Part# 067T4HC125s, if you need a bearing sleeve.
A sleeve will be required if the post is not a, smooth, round, machined, metal bearing surface. I had a machined metal bearing on my rudder shaft. Rumour has it, some J35s do not.
Getting the lower bearing off was a huge pain. A number of people gave me suggestions. One was to heat the bearing. This is a really bad idea. The shaft and bearing mounts are fibreglass and you could get your self into trouble fast by warping either the shaft or bearing mount. The second suggestion was to cut the lower bearing off. This was a reasonable option. If you are going to do this, take it a part first (you get a bunch of balls you can use for the top bearing if you lost a few). When you cut the bearing, make sure not to nick the rudder! I'm stubborn and did not want to cut it, so, I ended up making extensions for my bearing puller to make it long enough. This worked, but was somewhat unnerving. No photos of that, I forgot to take some.
Once the lower bearing was off, I dry fit the new lower bearing. I noticed that mounting area (see "Bearing-LowerMount.JPG") was not as tall as the bearing. Bill Wildner mentioned in his posting ( http://www.j35.org/Forums/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/1/view/topic/Default.aspx), you will need to build up the mounting area. I used the old bearing as the mold (glad at this point I did not cut if off!). I put the new bearing on, marked how much higher the base needed to be and took the new bearing off. I greased the inside of the old bearing with petroleum jelly and put it back on the shaft and lined it up with my marks. I also put a couple of screws in to hold it level. I used West Systems epoxy and cotton fibre filler to fill in the missing base. I mixed in the cotton fibre until the epoxy would still pour, but was thick (something close to Ketchup consistency). I left the epoxy overnight to cure and had to use my fancy extended bearing puller to persuade the old bearing to come off. It was much easier that the first time because of the petroleum jelly. Another note, it really helped to have the rudder standing straight up and down and level. I used some 2x4s screwed into my work bench to keep the rudder standing and level.
Once the old bearing was off, some sanding was needed to blend the old and new base together and to get the new bearing on again. Make sure when sanding you sand around the bearing evenly and not up and down. I cut up some strips of sandpaper and made duck tape tales (handles) so I could sand around the bearing. You are want to make sure the base stays in the center of the shaft.
I put the new bearing back on as was and held it in place with the provided set screws. I went back and fourth trying to decide if I needed to put a very thin coat of epoxy on the bearing mount before putting the new bearing on. I opted not to in case I needed to get it off again to make any adjustments. The boat came out of the water today, and all was well, so, I say you don't need to epoxy the bearing on. However, I would use a medium strength Loctite on the set screws.
So, now you have your lower bearing installed. A fair bit of work, but not that bad of a job.
When you go to install the lower bearing, as Bill mentioned in his posting, you want to get a couple of sizes of o-rings for the lower bearing. This makes the need for the set screws on the rudder shaft go away. Take them out and fill the holes with epoxy. Try to install the rudder in the cold if you can (e.g. early spring). I found I could get a bigger diameter o-ring in when it was cold. You also want to put some petroleum jelly on the rings to help get them in.
As for the top bearing, I opted for a new PYI one. I figured, I have the rudder out now and I really don't want to take it out again, may as well replace it. The big surprise here is that the new PYI bearing does not have a collar with set screws in it like the old bearing. I created a new collar using a piece of aluminium pipe I got from a local metal supply shop. The trick here is to find a piece of pipe that has the inside diameter which is the same as the outside diameter of the rudder shaft. I made it the same height as the old bearing and drilled and tapped 4 set screws into, again, like the old bearing. The next surprise came when I went to put the whole thing back into the boat. I got the rudder back in and the lower bearing back into roughly the same height as when we took it out, propped the rudder in place with a hand 2x4 jig and when up to put the top bearing in. I got the top bearing in, put my "locking" collar in place and tried to put the tiller head back on. Sadly, my locking ring was too tall and I could not get it on with the locking ring in place. I could not make the locking ring much smaller because of the size of the set screws.
The top bearing came with a white plastic washer/ring which I though I did not need. I took my locking ring off, put the plastic washer/ring and put the head back on. The only problem here was the that ring was not tall enough, so the rudder was hanging too low. So, I emailed Philip at PYI and ordered two more of the rings/washers. I now have a total of three which gives me the right gap between the rudder top and the hull (see IMG_0190.JPG, it shows a single ring in place). I was worried that I did not have a locking collar to hold the rudder shaft in place. However, by the time I put the head back on and tighten it up, the rudder did not go anywhere.
I hope that helps and saves you some of the hassles I ran into. The new bearings are fantastic. I had a good feel of the boat and the rudder did not flop around like it did before. Well worth the adventure and cost of doing.
Good luck,
Michael |
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Mike Lucas
Posts:5
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| 10/14/2007 10:41 PM |
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| Last image. |
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Dan Wierman
Posts:6
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| 10/15/2007 12:04 AM |
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Mike
Thanks for the info. This is the first that I have heard of others replacing the upper bearing as well as the bottom. Most of the write ups said something like "remove the upper bearing and remove the rudder".
My experiance was a lot like yours. I will probably go to PYI tomorrow to get the new upper bearing if they have one in stock(yes, I live close to them). I was planning on changing the sleeve as well. Even though it started out smooth, with the set screws and other dings, I don't know if it is smooth enough.
Removing the lower bearing was hard. I used some heat from a electric heat gun, but most of the removal involved a hammer and large drift bar.
So the spacer rings are the thrust bearing? And if you take the head off the tiller then the rudder will fall out?
Plan "B" may still involve putting the upper Harken bearing back together with new balls if PYI does not have the bearing in stock. A gear puller is a good idea.
Thanks
Dan |
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tom tepas
Posts:8
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| 10/15/2007 8:20 PM |
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Mike thanks for all of the information. I am still somewhat confused as to correct way to remove rudder. I gather that one must disassemble the top plate??? and then the rudder will drop down through the tube even though the upper,inner race is still on ?? My boat has never been in salt water so I believe the corrosion is minimal. I can get the upper inner race with the allen screws to spin freely on the stock when the pressure is taken off.(rudder lifted up). I thought the rudder stock was all stainless tube. In your picture it looks partially fiberglass ,with a bright pink legwarmer. I believe that there are a few setscrews inside the boat on the lower section of the ruddertube that must be removed . I spoke with Carl from UK sails Detroit today and he said to remove the lower setscrews and take a very large sledgehammer with a wooden block and drive the rudder out. He was in the middle of a Chicago Mac when his upper bearing let loose or fell out so he had a different kind of issue. Also my upper plate looks somewhat different than yours as there are twice as many scres holding it in . If I take it apart I will put a tarp down under the boat... Thanks again Tom Tepas
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Mike Lucas
Posts:5
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| 10/15/2007 9:47 PM |
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Hi Dan,
In a perfect world, and knowing what I know now, I would have left the top bearing in place, put a support under the rudder which would allow it to drop a few inches and get a really big hammer. Remove the tiller head, undo the set screws, put a piece of 2x4 or 4x4 on the sleeve and beat the daylights out of it until the shaft started to move. Once it is free, it should come out no problem. Trying some penetrating oil on the shaft might also help. It will need time to drip down between the bearing and shaft.
My sleeve had a couple of dings on it also from the set screws. I touched them up with a piece of emery cloth. If the top bearing is still in good shape, no real need to replace it. I found with my new upper bearing, that I had to sand/polish my sleeve to get it to fit. Be careful not to take too much off. You need to remove less than a thousand.
The new bearing has rollers in it, not balls and unlike the old bearing it runs on the sleeve. It's important to make sure the sleeve is smooth so it does not damage the rollers. The nice part about this is that it will not get stuck like the old bearing when trying to remove it.
I also found that it was much easier to put the rudder back in with the upper bearing out. This gives you lots of wiggle room to get the lower bearing in with the o-rings on it. Once you have the rudder in place, it is much easier to slide the upper bearing on the sleeve and then with some gentle persuasion, into the deck.
>So the spacer rings are the thrust bearing?
Yes. I needed three to keep my float line on the rudder in the same place.
>And if you take the head off the tiller then the rudder will fall out?
Yup, pretty much. Not something I recommend doing while the boat is in the water ;)
I called Harken, they still sell the bearing balls. However, they were around 75 cents each! Ok if you only need a few.
Michael |
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Mike Lucas
Posts:5
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| 10/15/2007 10:01 PM |
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Hi Tom,
Sounds like your rudder will come out with out removing the upper bearing. With the set screws loose, if you can turn the inner section of the bearing around the sleeve and you can move the sleeve up and down some, it should come out.
Yes, there are 4 set screws at the base of the rudder shaft. I have an aft propane locker on the Starboard side so I can only get to the set screws from the port quarter berth. On my boat the screws were Philips/cross heads. You may also want a part of vice-grips. One of my screw heads was stripped. If you don't have to take the top bearing apart, DON'T!
Make sure the rudder is supported before you undo the set screws on both the upper bearing and the rudder shaft. After that, it should slide right out. A couple of pairs of hands would be good. The rudder is heavy and a little awkward.
The rudder shaft has only about 12 to 16 inches of a stainless sleeve. The rest is fibreglass.
The photo of the installed top bearing is the new PYI bearing. It has less holes that the original bearing. It also does not have the extra large holes for the rudder stops.
Michael
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Mike Lucas
Posts:5
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| 10/15/2007 10:11 PM |
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One additional thought, you may want to replace the cutlass bearing on the propeller strut. This needs to be done from time to time and you need to remove the rudder to do it. Since you have the rudder out, now is the time to do it.
See the FAQ from Bill Wildner: http://www.j35.org/Default.aspx?tabid=97
Michael |
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Dan Wierman
Posts:6
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| 10/15/2007 11:26 PM |
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Hi All
I just got back from a long day at the boat, so some of this may not make much sense:-)
I talked to Phil at PYI and we settled on a upper bearing without a new sleeve($892). I measured the OD of the existing stainless steel sleeve and it came out to 3.995. He said that he would want to see closer to 3.999, but I can only do the best that I can. He thought that .003 or more clearance would be noticable. I plan on cleaning it up with emery cloth before I install. The sleeve type bearing ran more($1272) and was for J35 that have a different rudder stock on top(aluminum, fiberglass?). But the sleeve also makes it harder to install a thrust bearing(more later). I have a PDF of the upper bearing with sleeve that I can try to load, but not tonight!
He also said that some J35's have different upper bearings. Mine has a 9" OD upper plate, some have 8". The actual bearing is also different.
Now the thrust bearing. He offered me a collar with lock screws, but it is 1" thick. He is selling me a thrust bearing with ball bearings that is 1/2" thick($188) and two delrin washers(FREE!). The distance from the upper plate to the bottom of the tiller on my boat is 5/8".
I could not get the the old Harken upper race to move. I also could not find a big enough gear puller, so I cut it with a hack saw untill it was nearly cut into and then broke it with a cold chisel. This was about the easiest part of this whole evolution. This may sound strange, but it appeared that if it was bedded to the stock with epoxy. I will look closer, it could be corrosion.
I only have two set screws at the lower bearing. They are athwartships, none fore and aft. And they are hex head bolts.
Tom, Phil at PYI suggested bedding the lower bearing with Sikaflex. Is it possible that something like that could be holding it in? Also, have you tried to pull the upper bearing up and off the sleeve if it is loose?
Now a question. How tight is the new Jefa lower bearing on the rudder stock? I think my old Harken bearing was set in epoxy, it is really a tght fit!
More Later
Dan |
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Robert Gordenker
Posts:14
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| 10/18/2007 10:25 AM |
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Hi All,
You guys are making me feel spoiled. It takes me 2 guys and about 15 minutes to drop my rudder out of the boat in the fall and 2 guys and 25 minutes to put things back in the spring..... No balls flying around!
I have one of the older Harken top bearings with the inner race NOT glued to the rudder post. The set screws are oversized and I added 2 extra ones as cheap insurance. This allows the rudder post to slip down through the inner race of the top bearing. The whole top bearing assembly stays bolted to the deck! By taking care that there are no dings or scratches, this does not seem to place any undue wear on the ID of the race.
The lower bearing was replaced with the PYI unit a few years ago. It remains on the rudder shaft during the drop.
One hint on the PYI bearing. The outer ball races are made of a delrin (nylon like) material, which are threaded into the aluminum outer ring. The threads of the slippery delrin do no hold very well on the aluminum. After some fairly serious pounding at sea, I found the race had actually turned itself loose (balls away!). The fix is pretty simple. A dab of 3M 4200 in 3 places joining the delrin to the outer after adjusting the tightness of the races. This is just to keep the threads from moving relative to each other. If I need to open up the bearing, I can simply cut through the 4200.
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tom tepas
Posts:8
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| 10/18/2007 7:53 PM |
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| Rudder update... went down to boat tonite with large 10 lb sledgehammer, vise grips and neon light.. removed one set screw from tube inside of boat.. unscrewed the other side and only half came out. Began to drive top post down. It took a great deal of force to move things but it eventually came down to the point where the lower bearing is completely free from the hull. Now the top stainless post is almost flush with the top bearing and seems be be stuck pretty good there. If I had to do this over I would have spent a lot more time preparing the outer surface of the post .. but I thought that the ptoblem was coming from the lower bearing///// not so I think that at this point I should dissassemble the top bearing plate and remove balls if possible and slide rest of rudder out with upper race intact so I can take to shop and work on it... Am hesitant at this time to use more force Tom Tepas |
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William Wildner
Posts:29
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| 10/22/2007 5:06 PM |
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Robert, your upper bearing must be like mine as it has never caused any issues when removing the rudder. Also the stainless sleeve that is epoxied to the rudderpost is all one diameter and the inner race of the upper bearing slides right over it. It appears that the upper bearing on Tom, Dan and Mikes boats are different. I think that they must have older models, My boat was built late November 1989, how about the rest of you guys?
Also I believe the recomendation by the people at PYI to bedd the lower bearing is in referance to bedding it to the ruder post not the boat itself.
Good luck,
Bill |
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Dan Wierman
Posts:6
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| 10/25/2007 7:58 PM |
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Robert
Don't feel so spoiled. I removed the rudder and reinstalled it SOLO! As noted above, the removal was very difficult, but the reinstallation was very easy and only took me a half hour. I rigged a line from a secondary winch, thru a snatch block on the backstay and down the tube. I tied this line thru the hole in the stainless sleeve on the rudder stock. Initially, I only raised it a little at a time by hand until it was upright in the tube. Lots of trips up and down the ladder. Then a little cranking on the winch raised it the rest of the way.
I used -258 orings(the only ones I could find!) and lubed everything up well with vasaline. It slipped right in. The upper bearing fit well and the stackup with the thrust bearing and the two rings was just right. Splashed the boat three days later and went racing the next day. The rudder is very smooth and solid except I may have a little slop in the tiller head. I may try to shim it.
I really think the difficulty in removing the upper bearing was due to the corrosion between the dissimilar metals. This is a constant problem around the seawater that I sail in. It had a hard layer of scale on the inside of the aluminum race. We sail all year round and ussually only haul every other year, so don't remove the rudder until we had to.
Oh, and Phil was adamant about bonding the bearing to the tube. I ask him how I was suppose to do that with the bearing in a tube. That's when he told me to smear Sikaflex all over it. When I told him that you guys were using orings, he thought that that was a great idea.
Dan |
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Robert Gordenker
Posts:14
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| 10/27/2007 7:02 PM |
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Guys,
As expected, you bring me back to earth! I have done the removal solo, but not the re-install. Used a block and tackle off the stern pulpit. Getting the darn thing into the van alone is the really hard part.
I have not tried the o-rings yet! Definitely on the plate for next spring. Until now I have been using polyimide tape (1 mil thickness) that is about 1/2 in wide. Wind it around the outside of the lower bearing to build up the OD for a snug fit. The polyimide hardly compresses and with the set screws, it's solid.
Actually, tomorrow is drop the rudder day and finish the cover! Another great season in the books.
Robert |
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William Wildner
Posts:29
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| 10/27/2007 9:44 PM |
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One year I had a different problem with the rudder and had it in and out of the boat at least 5 times that spring. I also devised a method of getting it in and out by myself......I don’t recommend that to anyone.........and I was 10 years younger then (read stronger and dumber).
The problem was an alignment; the rudder was not straight down and not in line with the keel. Just last year made some surgery to the tube and deck to move the top bearing over to starboard about 1 inch to make the alignment much better just not perfect. |
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Robert Gordenker
Posts:14
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| 10/30/2007 8:06 PM |
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Speaking of rudders... Has anyone weighed theirs lately.
I was keeping a note with the weight from winters past, but have managed to lose it.
@#$@#$%^@##$@#$, It's the one sure fire way I know of to tell if the rudder is soaking up water!
Robert |
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William Wildner
Posts:29
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| 10/30/2007 8:53 PM |
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Robert, do you remove the rudder every year when hauled for winter? How much did the weight vary from year to year?
I have not weighed my rudder but in the past I would drill a couple holes in the bottom every fall after haul out to allow water drain out the bottom. Just filled the holes with epoxy in the spring. Thought my rudder was fairly dry till a couple years ago when I took it out with intention of templating the rudder to make it more symmetrical.
One side had a bulge from the factory, when this was taken down we sanded through the fiberglass a found the inside to be wet. This discovery turned a 2 weekend project into a rest of winter restoration.
I do like the idea of keeping a log of the weight and the next time I pull the rudder I will get a weight.
Bill Wildner
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Robert Gordenker
Posts:14
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| 10/30/2007 9:29 PM |
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Bill,
Yes, I take it home and set it next to the furnace (10 feet away) for the winter. I had not been drilling holes in it, but think that I will this winter.
By The Way, when you drill, do you drill up from the bottom. What location? Center or the foil and about 1/3 back from the leading edge?
Or in from the side.... How far up.... I have seen people do it both ways!
The darn thing is that I can't find the record... My poor old brain remembers that it varied by about 5 pounds. This year, when I really need to know, I can't find the record! It felt really heavy putting it in the car on Sunday!
Robert
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William Wildner
Posts:29
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| 10/31/2007 8:52 AM |
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Robert,
I was drilling 2 holes on center along the bottom, 1st hole about 2 inches from leading edge, second about 3-4 inches behind that. I recommend drilling the holes rather deep, at least 3-4 inches.
When I discover the water inside during the fairing job I drilled holes all over the darn thing .
Then placed it in a small room that I heated to 90 degrees with very dry electric heat .
Wish I would have thought to weigh it before and after. I think the water was leaking into the rudder around the top where the rudder post enters the blade, so I did some work on that area with glass and epoxy, I hope it is sealed up now.
Bill |
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